This Robert Lazar is a scientist
with two masters degrees, one in physics, the other in electronics. He wrote
his thesis on magneto hydrodynamics (MHD). He has worked in Los Alamos as
a technician and then as a physicist in the Polarised Proton Section dealing
with particle accelerators. In his spare time, he has
built a jet powered car and a jet powered motorbike (max. speed 350mph!),
as well as a car capable of running off of hydrogen.
In March 1989, Lazar appeared on KLAS-TV
in the US claiming to have worked in an above Top Secret installation known
as S-4, ten miles south of AREA 51 in the Nevada desert. He was a scientist
who was employed between December 1988 and April 1989 to examine a captured
flying saucer to try and reverse engineer the saucer's propulsion mechanism.
He claims that there were nine different saucers at S-4, although he was
only working on one of them. He was told that the crafts used a propulsion
system that uses gravity waves, a theory that mainstream science hasn't
discovered yet ...
(scientists don't know
what gravity actually is, there are many theories,but there hasn't been
one that is universally accepted yet)
..and the energy needed is supplied
by irradiating Element 115, an element not found on Earth and which cannot
be synthesised. A kilogram of the element releases the same amount of energy
as 47 10-megaton hydrogen bombs. He says that he had 500 pounds (227.27kg)
of the element to work with, but each craft only needed 223 grams of the
element. Whilst working on one of the craft, he was allowed to actually
go inside the craft and he was also present at a test flight in which the
craft underwent a few simple manoeuvres in the air.
When he went public in March 1989, he
appeared on US TV in shadow with his voice altered, under the pseudonym
"Dennis", an inside joke since his boss at S-4 was called Dennis
Mariani, in an attempt to remain anonymous. On 29/3/89 he took three of
his friends, one of them John Lear, to the edge of S-4 to observe any UFO
test flights through a telescope.They saw (and filmed) a bright light rise
in a step manoeuvre, that is, it would hover in the air, briefly disappear
and reappear a few feet higher, and then the light went down in the same
way. When they went again the following week on 6/4/89, they were caught
by a security guard. Their ID details were recorded on a computer in Area
51 and they were ordered to leave the area, despite it being public land.
They did leave and the following day, Lazar was ordered to go to Area 51
for a meeting with some security guards and an FBI agent. It was then that
he resigned and left.
After he resigned and after looking up his birth certificate
(for a new job) and finding it gone, and then looking up more personal details
about himself and also finding them missing....Including the places he used
to work at (Government Departments etc )...all personal details of him appeared
to be "missing".. Like Robert Scott Lazar simply did not exist....
He decided that he'd better go public on TV under his own name, * the theory
being that if anyone kills him after going completely public, then that
action would prove that he was telling the truth.*
He went on TV to tell the full story in November 1989 and his story has
(to my knowledge) remained consistent since then.
* This is a consistent policy of UFO
"whistleblowers" The government
agencies will always paint people like Robert Lazar as either Fools..Drug
Crazed idiots..Attention Seekers..Money Seekers-Books-CD's-etc, or Idiots
or Mental Patients. Unfortunately about 50 % of the general population will
always agree. It's very sad.
His Interview is printed below
On the Record, KLAS-TV
December 9, 1989
George Knapp, producer/host
Robert Lazar, guest.
Knapp: Hello, and welcome to On the Record. One month
ago, we began a series of reports about UFOs. With the exception of a few
cranky newspaper people, the response has been overwhelmingly positive.
We've had requests for more information from all over the country and from
all over the world. Tonight we're going to delve a little deeper into the
subject with the man who was the impetus for our report in the first place,
Bob Lazar. Bob, good to have you here. A thumbnail sketch of yourself for
those who might not be familiar with your background.
Lazar: I worked at Los Alamos National Lab.
Knapp: As a physicist ?
Lazar: As a physicist, and hired as a senior staff physicist
at Area S-4, for what I was told anyway was the United States Navy.
Knapp: Where is S-4 ?
Lazar: It's about 10 to 15 miles south of Groom Lake,
about 125 miles north of Las Vegas.
Knapp: How did you get the job ?
Lazar: I really don't want to mention the guy who I
got it through. But I was referred to a person at EG&G to drop off my
resume to; that's where I was interviewed; though the job is COMPLETELY
unrelated to EG&G.
Knapp: What did they tell you you were going to be doing
? Or DID they tell you ?
Lazar: No, they really didn't tell me until the very
end. They said a high-technology job, something that I'd be very interested
Knapp: Okay, so you get hired. And what happens ? Do
you fly up there ?
Lazar: Fly up there. First day was reading briefings
and that sort of thing. And it became evident to me pretty quickly the level
of technology they were dealing with: gravitational propulsion and things
that science has really only barely touched on.
Knapp: We'll get into the things that you saw in a couple
of minutes. But it's been about a little more than three weeks since your
identity was made public. We had you on another program a couple of months
ago -- using an assumed name and having you in silhouette -- but since your
identity has been made public and since this information has been made public,
what's it been like ? What's been the response from people that see you
on the street ?
Lazar: The response has been almost all favourable.
In fact, everyone that I've run into has been very supportive, very interested.
I guess there's just two or three letters.
Knapp: -- from people that don't believe you ?
Lazar: Yeah. Essentially.
Knapp: Responses from other media outlets as well ?
Knapp: They want to interview you ? What do they want
Lazar: Essentially everything, yes. Radio interviews,
TV interviews. A lot of people want to dig back into my background and re-trace
Knapp: Many of the people who have been
calling -- calling us as well -- were under the impression that either you've
gone underground or you've been silenced or we've been silenced by dark
and sinister forces. Anything like that happen to you so far ?
Lazar: That's ridiculous. People are
always going over the deep end on that. And no one's told me -- other than
originally -- not to say anything. And I'm sure no one's come forward to
Knapp: But in the beginning, they told you to keep quiet
Lazar: Oh yeah ! It's the most secret program in the
Knapp: In what way did they try to make sure you kept
your mouth shut ?
Lazar: Everything up to death threats. I mean CONSTANT
reminders of it, signing away my constitutional rights for fair trial and
that sort of thing.
Knapp: And since this thing, your phone's been tapped,
you believe ?
Lazar: Yeah, I believe. I have a tap detector, and occasionally
after I pick up the phone, a little red light goes on.
Knapp: The reason you came forward with
the information to begin with ? Is it related to the fact that they were
bothering you ?
Lazar: Yeah, it was essentially to stop
that. What had happened was, I sent in a request for my birth certificate,
and as it turned out it wasn't there anymore, that I wasn't born at the
hospital ! And that kind of got me wondering what's going on. I put in a
request for some other information, previous jobs, and that was also gone,
and I thought something had to be done before I disappeared.
Knapp: The same thing -- it was Los
Alamos ? They've never heard of you ?
Knapp: Anything happened since the reports have aired
Lazar: They let me know that they were around by doing
stupid, childish little things. But nothing serious, no.
Knapp: You were worried about your LIFE though for a
while there, weren't you ?
Lazar: That was one of the reasons to come on and let
everything out on the air; it's a little of insurance.
Knapp: Are you worried any more ? Do you get the feeling
you're over the hump ?
Lazar: To some degree, yeah.
Knapp: Do you find that most people really believe you
or that they just want more information ?
Lazar: I think a lot of people believe what I said,
but the majority I think do just want more information, too. It's an in-depth
Knapp: Let's look at some of the technology you saw.
When did you first get the idea, what's the first thing you saw that made
you convinced that it's not from here ?
Lazar: The first thing was HANDS-on experience with
the anti-matter reactor.
Knapp: Explain what that is and how it works and what
Lazar: It's a plate about 18 inches in diameter with
a sphere on top.
Knapp: We have a tape of a model that a friend of yours
made. You can narrate along. There it is.
Lazar: Inside that tower is a chip of Element 115 they
just put in there. That's a super-heavy element. The lid goes on top. And
as far as any other of the workings of it, I really don't know, you know,
[such as] what's inside the bottom of it . . . 115 sets up a gravitational
field around the top. That little wave guide you saw being put on the top:
it essentially siphons off the gravity wave, and that's later amplified
in the lower portion of the craft. But just in general, the whole technology
is virtually unknown.
Knapp: Now we saw the model. We saw the pictures of
it there. It looks really, really simple, almost too simple to actually
Knapp: Working parts ?
Lazar: None detectable. Essentially, what the job was
was to back-engineer everything, where you have a finished product and to
step backwards and find out how it was made or how it could be made with
earthly materials. There hasn't been very much progress.
Knapp: How long do you think they've had this technology
up there ?
Lazar: It seems like quite a while, but I really don't
Knapp: What could you do with an anti-matter generator
? What does it do ?
Lazar: It converts anti-matter . . . It DOESN'T convert
anti-matter ! There's an annihilation reaction. It's an extremely powerful
reaction, a hundred percent conversion of matter to energy, unlike a fission
or fusion reaction which is somewhere around eight-tenths of one percent
conversion of matter to energy.
Knapp: How does it work ? What starts the reaction going
Lazar: Really, once the 115 is put in, the reaction
Knapp: I don't understand. I mean, there's no button
to push or anything ?
Lazar: No, there's no button to push or anything. Apparently,
the 115 under bombardment with protons lets out an anti-matter particle.
This anti-matter particle will react with any matter whatsoever, which I
imagine there is some target system inside the reactor. This, in turn, releases
heat, and somewhere within that system there is a one-hundred-percent-efficient
thermionic generator, essentially a heat-to-electrical generator.
Knapp: How is this anti-matter reactor connected to
gravity generation that you were talking about earlier ?
Lazar: Well, that reactor serves two purposes; it provides
a tremendous amount of electrical power, which is almost a by-product. The
gravitational wave gets formed at the sphere, and that's through some action
of the 115, and the exact action I don't think anyone really knows.
The wave guide siphons off that gravity wave, and that's
channelled above the top of the disk to the lower part where there are three
gravity amplifiers, which amplify and direct that gravity wave.
Knapp: In essence creating their own gravitational field.
Lazar: Their own gravitational field.
Knapp: You're fairly convinced that science on earth
doesn't have this technology right now? We have it now at S-4, I guess,
but we didn't create it ?
Knapp: Why not ? Why couldn't we ?
Lazar: The technology's not even -- We don't even know
what gravity IS !
Knapp: Well, what is it ? What have you learned about
what gravity is ?
Lazar: Gravity is (maybe) a wave. There are many different
theories, wave included. It's been theorised that gravity is also particles,
gravitons, which is also incorrect. But gravity is a wave. The basic wave
they can actually tap off of an element: why that is I'm not exactly sure.
Knapp: So you can produce your own gravity. What does
that mean ? What does that allow you to do ?
Lazar: It allows you to do virtually anything. Gravity
distorts time and space. By doing that, now you're into a different mode
of travel, where instead of travelling in a linear method -- going from
Point A to B -- now you can distort time and space to where you essentially
bring the mountain to Mohammed; you almost bring your destination to you
And since you're distorting time, all this takes place
in between moments of time. It's such a far-fetched concept !
Knapp: Of course, what the UFO sceptics say is, yeah,
there's life out there elsewhere in the universe; it can never come here;
it's just too darn far. With the kind of technology you're talking about,
it makes such considerations irrelevant about distance and time and things
Lazar: Exactly, because when you are distorting time,
there's no longer a normal reference of time. And that's what producing
your own gravity does.
Knapp: You can go forward or backward in time ? Is that's
what you're saying ?
Lazar: No, not essentially. It would be easier with
a model. On the bottom side of the disk are the three gravity generators.
When they want to travel to a distant point, the disk turns on its side.
The three gravity generators produce a gravitational beam. What they do
is they converge the three gravity generators onto a point and use that
as a focal point; and they bring them up to power and PULL that point towards
the disk. The disk itself will attach ONTO that point and snap back -- AS
THEY RELEASE SPACE BACK TO THAT POINT! Now all this happens in the distortion
of time, so time is not incrementing. So the SPEED is essentially infinite.
Knapp: We'll get into the disks in a moment. But the
first time you saw the anti-matter reactor in operation or a demonstration
-- you had a couple of demonstrations -- tell me about that.
Lazar: The first time I saw it in operation, we just
put -- a friend I worked with, Barry -- put the fuel in the reactor, put
the lid on as, as was shown there.
Immediately, a gravitational field developed, and he
said, "Feel it!" And it felt like you bring two like poles of
a magnet together; you can do that with your hand. And it was FASCINATING
to do that, impossible, except on something with great mass! And obviously
this is just a . . . And it was a REPULSION field. In fact, we kind of fooled
around with it for a little while. And we threw golf balls off it. And it
was just a really unique thing.
Knapp: And you had other demonstrations to show you
that this is pretty wild stuff, right ?
Lazar: Yeah, they did. They were able to channel the
field off in a demonstration that they created an INTENSE gravitational
area. And you began to see a small little black disk form, and that was
the bending of the light.
Knapp: Just like a black hole floating around ?
Lazar: Yeah, well, a black hole is a bad analogy, but
Knapp: And they gave you some kind of demonstration
about time, involving a candle ? Explain how that works.
Lazar: Yeah, they took a candle and lit it and put it
in the distorted gravitational field, which distorts time, and the candle
just stood there. It didn't melt or burn. It was REALLY unbelievable !
Knapp: You had to be floored by seeing all this.
Lazar: Oh I was ! That's why I'm kind of laughing about
it now because it must sound ridiculous to everyone. But it's just phenomenal.
I mean this is really alien technology.
Knapp: About the 115: We talked a little
bit about it in the series of reports. Explain what it is again and why
you believe it could not be manufactured here.
Lazar: Okay, it's a super-heavy element:
On the periodic chart, which lists all the elements found on earth and that
can be synthesised, I think the highest element we've synthesized has been
about Element 106. Now from 103 -- or actually, anything higher than plutonium
up -- the half-life begins to drop; in other words, the element disintegrates.
When you get up to Element 106, it's only around for a very small amount
of time. Even science today theorizes
that up around Element 113 to 116 -- somewhere in there -- they should again
become stable. This is in fact true.
That's what Element 115 is; it's a stable element.To synthesise it would
be impossible. The way we synthesise heavy elements is, we take a stable
element like bismuth or something like that, or plutonium, whatever, put
it in an accelerator, and BOMBARD it with protons. Essentially what you're
trying to do is plug in protons into the atoms and increase the atomic number.
To do that to the level of Element 115 would just take an infinite amount
of power and an infinite amount of time.
Knapp: What kinds of things, what capabilities would
a heavy element like this have -- I mean other than producing power ? Obviously,
it can produce a LOT of power, right ?
Lazar: It in itself is not anti-matter. It just has
a unique property of producing it. Any of the other basic properties it
has I really don't know of. But using just the anti-matter-producing property,
the potential for a weapon is staggering ! It's absolutely staggering !
Knapp:Like what ? A pound of it: what could it do ?
Lazar: Well, 2.2 pounds is the energy equivalent of
47 10-megaton hydrogen bombs. I mean, it's a good bang ! And a pound of
a super-heavy element is maybe the size of a plum or something like that.
Knapp: I guess what I've heard most from people who
just don't buy the whole story is that sure, maybe you work at an area called
S-4, and maybe it is a secret area, but what you were shown is stuff that
we've made. That we made this 115 -- if it is 115 -- that we made the flying
disks, that we made these anti-matter reactors, because these are advances
that you just don't know about.
Lazar: Hardly. [laughs.]
Knapp: Why not ?
Lazar: Well, the 115, it's impossible. And the FACT
that the main job of everyone there is to find out how everything's made;
I mean that just contradicts everything right off the bat. The materials
are completely alien to us, and just the overall idea of the project is:
Hey, can we duplicate this with materials that we have here ? So obviously,
it was something that was found or given, for that matter, and we're just
trying to duplicate it.
Knapp: The 115: Where do you suppose
it came from then ? I mean, what kind of environment would that kind of
element come from ?
Lazar: The only place that 115 could
be made would have to be in a natural situation, somewhere maybe on the
fringes of a supernova or somewhere around maybe a binary star system, where
there was more mass in the primordial mix of that system, where heavier
elements would have had a chance to form, when the stars were collapsing
and there were huge amounts of energy being released. It's something along
these lines; it has to be a naturally-occurring element.
Knapp: You saw an anti-matter reactor. You saw gravity-propulsion
systems in flying disks, flying saucers. You saw this Element 115. You also
read a series of reports that had other stunning information. Can you give
an overview of the kind of things that were in these reports ?
Lazar: The reason I didn't do that before was, first
of all they were just reports. Everything else I had hands-on experience
with. Now there was LOTS of strange information in the reports, but there
again it's just printed material and it could be disinformation. I don't
know. But certainly, the information I did read in the reports about 115,
the disks, the grav -- I mean, that all had material that related to that.
The reports went into aliens and even went along the lines of religious
Knapp: Well, we can let our audience know. I mean we
discussed this, when we were putting this series of reports together, whether
to get into the alien thing or not, and we decided not to for the time being.
It's not like you're hiding something from the audience or whatever, it
was just a decision we made. But you did see reports -- whether they're
true or not -- Government reports about aliens.
Knapp: What were the reports ?
Lazar: There were photographs of aliens. There were
autopsy reports. There was really a wealth of information.
Knapp: What did they look like ?
Lazar: The typical "grey." I hate to say that,
like anyone knows what a typical grey is. It's a creature, probably three
and a half to four feet tall, a large hairless head, black, slanted eyes,
long arms, very thin-looking. I don't know how else I would describe them.
Knapp: What does an autopsy report look like ? What's
included in an autopsy report that you said you read ?
Lazar: The reason I call it an autopsy report is I saw
the carcass -- it was obviously a dead alien -- carcass cut up and it was
all dark inside like it had an iron base. The reason I say iron is because
it was very dark blood or whatever. I'm not a doctor, but it seemed to be
one large organ in the body as opposed to identifiable heart and lungs and
that sort of thing, but just one gooey mess in it.
Knapp: What did the report say ? It had pictures; it
had to have some words: "Here's Exhibit A, an alien" ?
Lazar: Essentially so ! They had weights and densities
of the organs, said there were no conclusions drawn, but it was just a basic
description of what the person who was cutting open the body saw.
Knapp: Say where they came from ?
Lazar: Yeah, in one of the reports it said they came
from Reticulum 4, was what it said.
Knapp: Where is that ? Any idea ?
Lazar: [laughs] Well, I'm told it's a star system in
Zeta Reticuli. Reticulum is the constellation. And by "Reticulum 4,"
they meant the fourth planet out from that sun. In the same reports, we
were identified -- instead of saying Earth, we were identified as "Sol
3," meaning the third planet out from our sun.
Knapp: Now you've read a lot of UFO material. Do you
find yourself mixing what you've read and what you've learned from up there
Lazar: No, that's why I stay away from the UFO researchers
and things like that. I really don't want to be associated with that. I
don't research the stuff. It's interesting to read, but no, I'm not mixing
anything that I've read into this stuff.
Knapp: We were just talking about the UFO field in general,
and you feel a little reluctant to get mixed up in it, although you ARE
Lazar: Unfortunately, yeah.
Knapp: Why the reluctance ?
Lazar: I don't know. There are so MANY stories circulating
around. Everyone has their own view. Each UFO researcher says they have
the right story. And essentially, I don't want to side with anyone because
I don't know where that information's come from, though they do all have
the basic story: you know, there ARE alien crafts here; how they got here
is, probably aliens brought them here, unless we really have a neat setup
with the UPS. There's just so many different factions of them [UFO researchers],
and they all kind of war between each other; I really don't want to get
associated with them.
Knapp: Before you got into the program at S-4, though,
you had an interest in UFOs. It must be hard for people to swallow that
here's a guy who has an interest in it and he gets hired into the program.
Lazar: Well, there was a very brief time there I had
sent out resumes to several places, and I wanted to get back into the scientific
field again. Almost simultaneously, I met John Lear and read some of his
material. And initially, I thought he was just absolutely crazy. But apparently,
he did have a good source of information because, as it turns out, some
of the information that he had I actually had hands-on experience with.
Knapp: But your regard for UFOs in general: As a scientist,
did you think there was something to it ?
Lazar: Absolutely not.
Knapp: Absolutely nothing ?
Lazar: No. I would have stood on that until the day
Knapp: Many of the people who have been calling are
UFO groups or UFO researchers who have demanded that you talk to them: We've
got to talk to this guy; we want to give him a lot more publicity so he
stays alive; we want him to give us information so that we can further check
out his background, etc.; we want to protect him; we want to help him.
You've resisted. You've done this program; you've done
a couple of reports with us; and you've done a radio show or two; in general,
you've resisted going into the UFO circuit. Why is that ?
Lazar: Just like I mentioned
before: I just don't want to be associated with those guys.
And how many people are you going to
open up your background to and let them run rampant through it ? I mean,
private detectives, every UFO group in the world wants to do that! The idea
was for me to release the information, essentially to protect myself and
take some of the heat off. And I've done that. And that's all that needs
to be done, really.
Knapp: Certain UFO researchers claim they've been getting
information from you all along; you've been leaking stuff to them; and that
they've read these reports that verify the information. You've been working
with UFO groups while you were in the program at S-4 ?
Lazar: Not UFO groups. I did mention a couple of things
to some people. That's all I'm gonna say.
Knapp: Okay. In essence, were you breaking your vows
that you made to the Government ?
Knapp: And why did you feel that was necessary ? I mean,
you took an oath, didn't you ?
Lazar: Yeah. But look at the magnitude
of what was going on. I believe that
some of the technology -- maybe all of the technology -- should be kept
secret, until we have a handle on everything. But certainly, the overview of what happened just cannot be a
secret from anyone -- not just the American people, but the rest of the world.
Let out the basic fact
that we have these craft, at one time aliens did at least visit and drop
off something, however they got here, that there was some contact made,
and then cut it short.
You don't need to release
the information on the gravity generators, the weapon potential -- which
is enormous -- and so on.
Knapp: What could you do with that technology ? Say
you took the flying disks, the anti-matter reactors, the gravity generators,
gave it to Los Alamos or Livermore, let them examine the potential abilities
of this stuff. I mean, how would this affect life on earth if this stuff
was widely available ?
Lazar: And mass-producable ?
Lazar: That's tough to
say. I mean, you have a completely different mode of travel. What happens
when you can play with time ? That gets into a really deep philosophical
Knapp: But I mean, it would change a lot
of stuff, change everything.
Lazar: Oh yeah ! It would change absolutely
Knapp: Do you think it
will ever come out ?
Lazar: Personally, no.
Knapp: What do you hope happens, both with
yourself and with this information ?
Lazar: There's been enough thorns put in
their toes to where they do try and release something.
Knapp: We'll have to have you come back,
Bob. Thanks for joining us.